Got threatened for fishing on tva?

[Andy S.]

Owner cussed me and my wife and everything.......

Was their big obvious signage that clearly stated "no fishing"? Wondering what set the owner off to the point of cussing you and wife?

 

[Bloodwolf1984]

No sir...not posted at all...he hates local people being out there at his party place

 

[DaveTN]

cop just told me that if I came back I would be arrested for criminal trespassing...is this true?

I would bet that is true.

 

[killingtime 41]

Just to clarify for everyone here, on any waterways managed by TVA (not detailing USACOE processes here), any commercial marina is managed and controlled by the said landowner and/or lessee. However in order to be the lessee, that same lessee MUST be the actual landowner of the backlying property which adjoins said lease. By being the backlying property owner, they are the only ones who then have the right to apply to TVA for the commercial marina - so long as they are doing so within the proper land zone as established by TVA.

All properties surrounding TVA reservoirs (within the flood contours) are planned as certain zones and the zone for commercial marinas is deemed "Developed Recreation". If the backlying property owner has the necessary deeded rights and the TVA property is in the correct zone, then that private individual has the right to apply for a commercial marina license. The lease aspect gets deeper regarding very specific land rights which aren't worth getting into here.

Even once a marina is applied for, there is a very detailed process that every application has to go through before TVA ever decides whether or not to approve of the marina being established at all. This process applies to any and every type of developed recreation facility that is proposed on that application too.

Once a marina is approved, the facility(ies) must be available to the public. But don't get those words confused with "free". The marina is still private entity set up for business purposes but that business must be available to any of the public to have access to under the rules and guidelines set forth by the landowner/lessee. This maintains the fact that facilities established on respectively zoned TVA properties and waterways are available to the public and not made "private". "Private" facilities on TVA waterways are another long explanation not worth getting into here.

The owner/lessee of a marina does have the right to establish the necessary rules and regulations pertaining to the property they have access to that they see fit in order to maintain the business they wish to achieve. This is why you see some marinas staying "no fishing from docks", "you must check in at marina office when you arrive", "boat launch fee is $xxx", no swimming in harbor limits or 'xx' from docks", etc. They are merely trying to protect the investment they have made into a public-accessible facility to a standard they wish to maintain. This serves as the same thing as a public restaurant in your local city/town saying they "have the right to deny service to anyone they so choose" or "shirt and shies required for service". Those are business decisions and we have the right to avoid that business if we don't like those policies.

As for TWRA rules and regulations, TVA has nothing to do with those. Same goes for the USACOE.

Just thought I would share the facts and details with those here that were interested in hopes of helping and clarifying. I know this because as recently as 3 years ago, I wrote that specific lease and many others at TVA. While many people may not agree with everything TVA does, the process for managing public recreation facilities on TVA waterways and lands truly is one that is set up to best serve all people that utilize the resources and to conserve them for years to come. Hope this helps.

And also some lakes the landowner will own down to the waters edge and other lakes they do not. As the tva owns a buffer to the waters edge on some lakes.

 

[Bloodwolf1984]

Was their big obvious signage that clearly stated "no fishing"? Wondering what set the owner off to the point of cussing you and wife?

No sign whatsoever..Dude is an @$$...everybody local doesn't like him and he has made all the locals mad...sucks..the same place I spent the best summers of my life on the lake with my mamaw and papaw I can't even go to now...all because of greed...but it is what it is

 

[killingtime 41]

someone will give him an attitude adjustment. Run your mouth to the right person and it's bound to happen.

 

[mike243]

Well the dock owners care nothing about the locals, we are poor compared to the Yankee's that they cater to. and it's a lot of them from what I have heard. Hickory Star seems to still treat us well. Thats the only dock I launch from, free ramps other wise.

 

[Bloodwolf1984]

someone will give him an attitude adjustment. Run your mouth to the right person and it's bound to happen.

He wouldn't come off the dock hehe

 

[Bloodwolf1984]

Well the dock owners care nothing about the locals, we are poor compared to the Yankee's that they cater to. and it's a lot of them from what I have heard. Hickory Star seems to still treat up well. Thats the only dock I launch from, free ramps other wise.

EXACTLY

 

[rsimms]

Thanks to BigDave12 for weighing in with some facts, although it is still a bit too much legalese for me to fully comprehend. I specifically wonder about the sentence, "The lease aspect gets deeper regarding very specific land rights which aren't worth getting into here.?"

I think that's the crux of the question posed here. Bottomline, where businesses have lease agreements to operate commercial marinas, is the lessee allowed to forbid me from walking on the land I own, fishing in the water I also own - when they are only there, for profit, by my permission (again, with TVA as my representative)?

I'm never going to push it. Don't want to, don't need to and honestly don't care that much. But I do think it is an interesting question/issue. And regardless of the wording of the lease, I think it would make an interesting court case if an individual did decide to defy the marina and a law enforcement entity did actual file trespass charges.

It really isn't very much different from the"game wardens accessing private land" case, except it would be in reverse - the government forbidding access to land the public does own. Hmmm?

 

[BigDave12]

I fully understand your frustration and thanks for asking what I meant about specific land rights, etc.

In order to have a commercial recreation lease with TVA, a person must first have the adjacent (or more specifically the "back- lying") land rights. This usually means they must own the private property that touches the TVA land. By having these private land rights, they also possess a legal private deed which specifies their rights. TVA has nothing to do with those private deeds, but the private deeds do grant the TVA leaseholder certain specific rights that they can uphold as part of their lease. An example would be that they are having to allow access to their business patrons to the TVA property via their own private property. Likewise, the specific tract of TVA land that the back-lying landowner owner now has the rights to also has very specific deeded rights that they must adhere to for its commercial operation. An example of that language could be: the property must be used for the operation of commercial recreation facilities available to the general public without permanent residential dwellings. I am not saying this is in their specific deed. This is just an example of what a TVA-owned tract of land's deed COULD say. From there, TVA works with the leaseholder on what types of commercial recreation facilities are and are not allowed and together, both parties define the specific details of said lease that is also within the confines of TVA's standard commercial recreation lease agreement.

I say standard because every TVA commercial recreation lease agreement has standard things in it that every leaseholder in TVA's service territory must agree and adhere to. It mostly defines what you can and cannot do with the physical TVA property (no digging without prior proper permitting, no tree cutting, on, and on). That's where all the legalese comes into play. The operation's specific details are also defined there and that's based on those land rights and TVA's commercial operations guidelines.

When it comes to allowing access for certain things on the property (i.e.: bank fishing to the general public), the leaseholder does have the right to determine if they want to allow that activity or not but it is usually not defined in lease terms. Those are operational rules that the leaseholder establishes as part of their business. What the business rules are is totally up to how they prefer to run their business.

Now, I get the fact that the TVA land and waterways are a public resource in all of our eyes. And that is a fact! However, that specific tract of TVA land (a leased tract for commercial recreation that is) was specifically planned to be just that - a commercial recreation tract of land to serve the public. This is the only way that TVA can control the amount of marinas and campgrounds that get developed throughout all the Valley (via managed amount of leases). TVA also does this with how much land is available for residential development and conservation (just to name 2 other examples of the lands planning zones) along the waterways too.

Again, there are lots of details and specific deed details that are different from location to location and property to property. Sort of like you and a neighbor. You may both own the same size piece of property directly next to one another, but your deeded land rights may vary. One may allow for a mobile home (unrestricted) while the other may not (restricted). That's what I meant by stating it's not worth getting into here - way too many variables to address here.

Remember, I am not advocating for how a business or its owner manages itself and implements its own rules. I'm just trying to explain the process to you and help you understand that nearly all leases from TVA's perspective are implemented equally among all leaseholders while also honoring (we have to do so legally) their specific deeded rights (and that's the part that varies). How a business chooses to manage itself is a business decision they make.

Hope this helps.

 

[rsimms]

When it comes to allowing access for certain things on the property (i.e.: bank fishing to the general public), the leaseholder does have the right to determine if they want to allow that activity or not but it is usually not defined in lease terms. Those are operational rules that the leaseholder establishes as part of their business. What the business rules are is totally up to how they prefer to run their business.

Yes, very helpful and informative. I appreciate you taking the time to share good information. It is something TVA (in general) should do more often in numerous situations.

But regarding such things "usually not defined in lease terms," leaves the issue in question resting in a big gray area - likely an area that could only be fully resolved in court, should there ever be a situation when either party chose to let it go that far (as occurred in the game warden access case). But I can clearly see most courts ruling in favor of the lessee, if for no other reason then protecting the property, and paying users of the property, from theft or other malicious acts.

I just remember when I was much younger, the owner/operators of Island Cove Marina on Chickamauga Lake (then called Loret Marina), allowed us to fish from the bank and from docks on the property. We caught a LOT of bass and crappie at night under the lights from beneath those docks. But I suspect these days most owner/operators would never allow such a thing, unless it was for a close friend, or customers who are paying for a slip at the marina.

Just another indicator of how our world has changed and how so many policies and practices are now dictated by lawyers.

But again, thanks for sharing and allowing this old curmudgeon to reminisce. As a long-ago LEO who was questioned by attorneys many times in court, I still find it entertaining nit pick legal questions.

 

[MickThompson]

I fully understand your frustration and thanks for asking what I meant about specific land rights, etc.

In order to have a commercial recreation lease with TVA, a person must first have the adjacent (or more specifically the "back- lying") land rights. This usually means they must own the private property that touches the TVA land. By having these private land rights, they also possess a legal private deed which specifies their rights. TVA has nothing to do with those private deeds, but the private deeds do grant the TVA leaseholder certain specific rights that they can uphold as part of their lease. An example would be that they are having to allow access to their business patrons to the TVA property via their own private property. Likewise, the specific tract of TVA land that the back-lying landowner owner now has the rights to also has very specific deeded rights that they must adhere to for its commercial operation. An example of that language could be: the property must be used for the operation of commercial recreation facilities available to the general public without permanent residential dwellings. I am not saying this is in their specific deed. This is just an example of what a TVA-owned tract of land's deed COULD say. From there, TVA works with the leaseholder on what types of commercial recreation facilities are and are not allowed and together, both parties define the specific details of said lease that is also within the confines of TVA's standard commercial recreation lease agreement.

I say standard because every TVA commercial recreation lease agreement has standard things in it that every leaseholder in TVA's service territory must agree and adhere to. It mostly defines what you can and cannot do with the physical TVA property (no digging without prior proper permitting, no tree cutting, on, and on). That's where all the legalese comes into play. The operation's specific details are also defined there and that's based on those land rights and TVA's commercial operations guidelines.

When it comes to allowing access for certain things on the property (i.e.: bank fishing to the general public), the leaseholder does have the right to determine if they want to allow that activity or not but it is usually not defined in lease terms. Those are operational rules that the leaseholder establishes as part of their business. What the business rules are is totally up to how they prefer to run their business.

Now, I get the fact that the TVA land and waterways are a public resource in all of our eyes. And that is a fact! However, that specific tract of TVA land (a leased tract for commercial recreation that is) was specifically planned to be just that - a commercial recreation tract of land to serve the public. This is the only way that TVA can control the amount of marinas and campgrounds that get developed throughout all the Valley (via managed amount of leases). TVA also does this with how much land is available for residential development and conservation (just to name 2 other examples of the lands planning zones) along the waterways too.

Again, there are lots of details and specific deed details that are different from location to location and property to property. Sort of like you and a neighbor. You may both own the same size piece of property directly next to one another, but your deeded land rights may vary. One may allow for a mobile home (unrestricted) while the other may not (restricted). That's what I meant by stating it's not worth getting into here - way too many variables to address here.

Remember, I am not advocating for how a business or its owner manages itself and implements its own rules. I'm just trying to explain the process to you and help you understand that nearly all leases from TVA's perspective are implemented equally among all leaseholders while also honoring (we have to do so legally) their specific deeded rights (and that's the part that varies). How a business chooses to manage itself is a business decision they make.

Hope this helps.

In what world is private residential development of otherwise public lands in my interest as a member of the public?

 

[BigDave12]

In what world is private residential development of otherwise public lands in my interest as a member of the public?

The private residential lands planning zones are planned as such because the associated back-lying property deeds usually allow the landowner ownership rights all the way down to the flood zone contour line. In these cases, TVA only owns a flowage area and land under the water. TVA does not own a specific land tract between the private land and contour line. In some cases the landowner even owns under the water.

If you are alluding to the fact that some people believe all TVA lands are public lands and only the public should have the say in how it's managed, that's an entirely different topic and conversation not meant for here. The lands are public lands, but TVA is entrusted with the management of those lands for the overall benefit of the public. In doing so, there are many ways TVA accomplishes such. That topic is better explained in person so one can understand how all TVA lands are managed and how public input led to (and still leads to updates of) the lands management plan that is in place. TVA has been around since 1933 and there is a lot of history (and varying situations) involving all lands that led to the management of such today. This is also why TVA has a very comprehensive Lands Plan and process. There are some great experts in this area at TVA that can explain that process to anyone who would like to know about all of that. I would encourage any of the public to call 1-800-TVA-LAND to get in touch with someone who can further answer your lands management questions.

 

[BigDave12]

Yes, very helpful and informative. I appreciate you taking the time to share good information. It is something TVA (in general) should do more often in numerous situations.

But regarding such things "usually not defined in lease terms," leaves the issue in question resting in a big gray area - likely an area that could only be fully resolved in court, should there ever be a situation when either party chose to let it go that far (as occurred in the game warden access case). But I can clearly see most courts ruling in favor of the lessee, if for no other reason then protecting the property, and paying users of the property, from theft or other malicious acts.

I just remember when I was much younger, the owner/operators of Island Cove Marina on Chickamauga Lake (then called Loret Marina), allowed us to fish from the bank and from docks on the property. We caught a LOT of bass and crappie at night under the lights from beneath those docks. But I suspect these days most owner/operators would never allow such a thing, unless it was for a close friend, or customers who are paying for a slip at the marina.

Just another indicator of how our world has changed and how so many policies and practices are now dictated by lawyers.

But again, thanks for sharing and allowing this old curmudgeon to reminisce. As a long-ago LEO who was questioned by attorneys many times in court, I still find it entertaining nit pick legal questions.

Thanks rsimms! Yes, times do change and unfortunately business practices have as well. And the legal system has not been spared in changing either. I sure wish our entire world could go back about 30+ yrs and just get along and respect each other like we all used to. Times seemed so much better then!